Curse

thorizdin · May 20, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Your argument is flawed thorizdin. We're discussing in a different manner. Search for Krysten's message. She puts it blatantly that they ARE interfering with game play. Even small guilds of friends want to battle each other, deny them this you say?

I have no desire to deny anyone of playing the game how they want to. However, I do have a problem with changing the only PvP only reward to fix a problem that will fix itself, with no effort from any player, in less than a month. If I could earn, even a significant minority of the skills & runes I need for competition I would agree to price controls, but I can't. Right now sigils are more valuable than they will ever be again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Well ok, guess there is no point in this game after all. They give you the ability to challenge specific guilds, I suppose you think this should be reserved for uber l337 guilds also? Where do you farm to get 8-10 platinum and hour? Really. I want to know? And since you seem pro-screwing over everyone else. What do you need 60 plat for? Honestly. I asked this before.

What do I need 60k for, well to buy un-id'ed rare armor and items so I don't have to spend so much time farming is my main issue. I also need to save up, since as I mentioned the gold mine that the sigil market is right now isn't going to last.

The ability to have challenge matches is a great feature and shouldn't be kept from anyone, again its a matter of balance, 1 exlusive PvP reward means that the reward has to be large to make things even close to being balanced. The devs have already softened this to a point, there was a time when you couldn't even form a guild without a sigil and thus didn't have guild chat or capes. In that case I agreed that a change needed to be made because it took away in game tools. The point here is why change a game mechanic for a problem that will resolve itself over a feature limitation that (challenge GvG) that a PvE guild will use very occasionally?

As for where I can make 8-10 platinum an hour, go to Beetletun and get the undead horde mission from the Elder there. Figure out how to solo that mission in 6 minutes or less but don't collect the reward, just zone and re-enter. This is very doable since its just 4 waves of undead as soon as you enter Watchtower with no running required. I'll give you one hint on the way I run it, use passive smiting skills.

Sadye X, the problem with that stance is simply balance. Everything else is acquired via PvE, runes, skills, and items. The exception at the moment is that holding the HoH also drops some decent items, but thats almost not worth mentioning when you consider how many thousands of items drop from high level PvE for ever single drop in the HoH. If, Arena.net wants to add more rewards for PvP then this would be less of an issue, currently we have to PvE more than most "PvE guilds" do because we want to compete in PvP.

JohnCoke · May 20, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorizdin

I have no desire to deny anyone of playing the game how they want to. However, I do have a problem with changing the only PvP only reward to fix a problem that will fix itself, with no effort from any player, in less than a month. If I could earn, even a significant minority of the skills & runes I need for competition I would agree to price controls, but I can't. Right now sigils are more valuable than they will ever be again.

That's what they said nearly a month ago at release. Read my post about more people coming in means more competition in a player oriented market as this. So this is purely speculation, and poor speculation at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorizdin

What do I need 60k for, well to buy un-id'ed rare armor and items so I don't have to spend so much time farming is my main issue. I also need to save up, since as I mentioned the gold mine that the sigil market is right now isn't going to last.

Your kidding right? Saving? For what, after you have ever friggin piece of armor/rune there isn't anything else. Besides unless they put more gold sinks in then there'll be money given away by the time your saving. They want the guild hall now with their friends, not 6 months later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorizdin

The ability to have challenge matches is a great feature and shouldn't be kept from anyone, again its a matter of balance, 1 exlusive PvP reward means that the reward has to be large to make things even close to being balanced. The devs have already softened this to a point, there was a time when you couldn't even form a guild without a sigil and thus didn't have guild chat or capes. In that case I agreed that a change needed to be made because it took away in game tools. The point here is why change a game mechanic for a problem that will resolve itself over a feature limitation that (challenge GvG) that a PvE guild will use very occasionally?

There are NO awards for PvE as someone posted, at least ones that delimit PvP. And another poster already told you, there are more uses than GvG... you cannot define what it's use is anymore than you can say the Monk always has to heal. These statements put you low on the debate list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorizdin

As for where I can make 8-10 platinum an hour, go to Beetletun and get the undead horde mission from the Elder there. Figure out how to solo that mission in 6 minutes or less but don't collect the reward, just zone and re-enter. This is very doable since its just 4 waves of undead as soon as you enter Watchtower with no running required. I'll give you one hint on the way I run it, use passive smiting skills.

Seen it. On my first run, there wasn't enough gold to show me that in an hour I'd make 8 plat, maybe 2 plat if you were lucky. Any others?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorizdin

Sadye X, the problem with that stance is simply balance. Everything else is acquired via PvE, runes, skills, and items. The exception at the moment is that holding the HoH also drops some decent items, but thats almost not worth mentioning when you consider how many thousands of items drop from high level PvE for ever single drop in the HoH. If, Arena.net wants to add more rewards for PvP then this would be less of an issue, currently we have to PvE more than most "PvE guilds" do because we want to compete in PvP.

Wow what awards for PvE? As you said, your guild sells a sigil for 60k. Nice. Now you've bought nearly everything for the guild that they couldn't even dream of. Now what? I dunno. Sell the next one for 60k too just in case new stuff is added? Oh, and you have to create a PvE character to unlock skills for PvP, so THOSE REWARDS are available for any PvP player also. While the sigil unless PvE's are extremely lucky is not available for them. Hence, the complaints. You need to change your perspective to actually see the problems with the system. At first I didn't, then someone clued me in. Maybe thats all you need. Oh, and to deserve it, all you have to do is pay $40 on Ebay. That really sets the bar for PvP.

Adaria · May 20, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I have yet to see a sigil on the actual trader at all, and when I got ahold of ours for our hall, I wen there, priced it, got about 3.5k pricing on how much I could sell it to the trader for, no wonder people refuse to give it to the trader and know that people are chump enough to pay for them when they are desperate.

I do believe a fixed price on them would be better than this monopoly run by the elitist top end guilds. There are plenty of groups that win HoH, but there are more extremely good guilds that do it more often than random PUG's or random guilds that are very low in ranks.

Personally, my view, nothing against PvP people, but the IRL world is already run enough by popularity or the best of one activity or another. Guild Wars is supposed to try and stop some of this with the level caps and such, but there are some aspects that just can't be controlled yet, but I do hope ANet or NCsoft figure a way to fix this monopolization, yet allow PvP guilds to still make money that they may need themselves, without causing either party, PvE or PvP to have an upperhand on the other in any one major way. PvP has the advantage of having everything handed to them, aside from skills and runes they unlock in PvE, PvE has an upper hand by having things unlocked and having experience with their characters over hours and hours of PvE play. Neither group should really be considered elite over the other, but unfortunately the Sigil Market has gone out of control since the release and is only going to get worse unless PvP guilds do something to stop the milking of the PvE players who, like Corwin said above, want a place of their own for quietness, guild meetings, or the like.

Because sigils need to be earned, does not mean they should be controlled so tightly by those who earn them, EVERYONE should have equal opportunity to get one, via hard earned gold in PvE, or through competition in PvP.

All I gotta say...

Jackell · May 20, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Sooo many new posts.... Lemme respond to a few.

Jmasters, you are right that not enough people are selling them right now, but I think just give it time. Once peoples RP characters start catching up, then they'll want to sell the Sigil's to get their really expensive armor. And yeah, it's not necesary, but it's bragging rights. So, I think, but always with theories like this, I could be more than wrong, people will start selling more and more as more and more people level and more and more people get one.

As to what does someone need 50k for? New armor/weapons for their guild, or alt characters, or just to have it. Why do PvE guilds (I know your not, this is just an example) want a Guild Hall? They don't need it to PvE. But, just to have it.

I'm in support of guilds being able to get Guild Halls, I'm not one who thinks they should be held for the 1337 crowd. But I think it's something that has to be earned. For example, if your guild can't (for various reasons) win a Sigil, then you work for the money and earn it, and once again to my first thought, once more and more people start to get better, form good teams, and win Sigils, the price will go down.

thorizdin · May 20, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

That's what they said nearly a month ago at release. Read my post about more people coming in means more competition in a player oriented market as this. So this is purely speculation, and poor speculation at that.

[SARCASM]Golly gee, now I get to go read your past postings!! Oh boy, let me jump right on that. [/SARCASM] I've been in the closed testing for more than a year and I'm on Arena.net's list of commended testers, but I guess my insight means nothing compared to your obvious brilliance.

Sigils are entering the economy 24 hours a day at a sustained rate of about one every 15 minutes or so. That means that approximately 100 new sigils are generated every day. There are enough different teams going to the HoH that no one has cornered the market. Right now there is a huge in rush of people who want to buy a GH, in fact this is probably the peak. We are one month into release and people are getting their characters ascended or nearly. At no time in the game's life cycle will sigils be this valuable, its not speculation at all its simple economics, the laws of supply and demand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Your kidding right? Saving? For what, after you have ever friggin piece of armor/rune there isn't anything else. Besides unless they put more gold sinks in then there'll be money given away by the time your saving. They want the guild hall now with their friends, not 6 months later.

First off, I happen to agree that the game needs golds sinks or some other method to keep gold's value up, since its value will plummet once the majority of the player base has purchased their last set of armor. The 75 platinum stuff will slow this down some, but I really hope they get a better handle on the economy.

In spite of the fact that I agree with you on the long term value of gold, I have an entire guild to make sure is outfitted at that will take a tremendous amount of money over the next couple of months. The best oppurtunity to make money for a PvP guild is right now, the prospects only get worse from here on out. It won't be six months, not even close to that. Each month puts 3000 new sigils in, and that rate won't decrease until demand starts to ebb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

There are NO awards for PvE as someone posted, at least ones that delimit PvP. And another poster already told you, there are more uses than GvG... you cannot define what it's use is anymore than you can say the Monk always has to heal. These statements put you low on the debate list.

Here is the problem with this line of logic, PvE is required for a PvP player. You cannot be competitive with the pre-mades so you must PvE. Someone commented about PvP characters getting armor for free, my PvP toons do get it for free. However the three PvE characters I have to build to get all of the skills (I play all roles in PvP) have to buy their armor. As for the uses of the guild hall, yes it can be used a gathering place away from the crowds and....... hmm thats about it for the moment. You can't lead a group to a PvE mission from a GH (they should add this), there isn't a practice hall, there aren't any vendors... In short you want to devalue the only PvP only reward so some guilds have a place to socialize and very occasionally PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Seen it. On my first run, there wasn't enough gold to show me that in an hour I'd make 8 plat, maybe 2 plat if you were lucky. Any others?

Try again to get under the 6 minute mark, thats where you have to be. One hint though, its often good enough to beat just the first wave, since they fall the fastest, zone and repeat. With the right build 8-10 plat is very doable, especially since the level 3 guys often drop a collectable item that is worth 12 gold. I normally sell between 15-30 of those alone for each run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Wow what awards for PvE? As you said, your guild sells a sigil for 60k. Nice. Now you've bought nearly everything for the guild that they couldn't even dream of. Now what? I dunno. Sell the next one for 60k too just in case new stuff is added? Oh, and you have to create a PvE character to unlock skills for PvP, so THOSE REWARDS are available for any PvP player also. While the sigil unless PvE's are extremely lucky is not available for them. Hence, the complaints. You need to change your perspective to actually see the problems with the system. At first I didn't, then someone clued me in. Maybe thats all you need. Oh, and to deserve it, all you have to do is pay $40 on Ebay. That really sets the bar for PvP.

First, I never said anything about "awards" everything I posted on was "rewards", big difference. If you want recognition for PvE accomplishments I am all for that. As for 60k buying what we need think again, its costs me 500 gold to buy one skill. That means if I spend the remaining skill points I have thats 25 platinum for one character, this also the one that I did almost all of the skill quests and I don't think I can bring myself to repeat that content so my next two will cost even more. 60 platinum doesn't go very far, especially when you are trying to get an entire guild of 50 people equipped and ready to compete. As for this statement, "Oh, and you have to create a PvE character to unlock skills for PvP, so THOSE REWARDS are available for any PvP player also.". I like that, they are "available", damn like I enjoy running the same content 3 times, please take away these PvE "REWARDS" and let me earn my rewards in PvP. As for E-Bay, IGE, etc I don't condone that and I don't believe thats good for the gaming community.

Sadye X · May 20, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorizdin

Sadye X, the problem with that stance is simply balance. Everything else is acquired via PvE, runes, skills, and items. The exception at the moment is that holding the HoH also drops some decent items, but thats almost not worth mentioning when you consider how many thousands of items drop from high level PvE for ever single drop in the HoH. If, Arena.net wants to add more rewards for PvP then this would be less of an issue, currently we have to PvE more than most "PvE guilds" do because we want to compete in PvP.

I do see the point you're making, and I'd explained myself a bit more in a previous post, but I'll add a couple of things here in terms of balance.

Were you mainly interrested in pvp, your goal in pve is to simply unlock skills / runes / item upgrades correct ? So say you get a drop for a major rune, but you don't manage to salvage it. No worries really, since you'll still have that rune unlocked for your pvp characters to use either way. On the other hand, a person interrested in pve, and completing the mission sequence gets the same rune drop, also fails to salvage it and guess what ? They get zero benefit from the same drop other than a small handful of common crafting materials. Balanced ?

I don't disagree in the slightest that there should be a major pvp award, and never have. My point is, it takes as much skill as an individual and working with a team to complete the mission sequence as it does to land yourself a win in the HoH ... yet where's the reward to balance the two ? Right now I'm only one mission away from having finished them, and as I said in my other post I've yet to see a single major or superior rune drop, nor a single rare weapon for my primary ( necro ). So I've had to buy runes / items just the same as a pvp character as I can tell you from experience that drops by no means get better or more frequent the further you get. And in the meantime I"ve had to buy all my armor sets etc, which as mentioned previously a pvp character gets for free. Oh, and the pvp character doesn't have to worry either about failing to salvage their runes from one armor set to the next, costing even more for runes if you don't get the drop yourself, which again, once unlocked for pvp you never have to bother with that issue again. Again I ask, do you see balance there ?

Divinitys Creature · May 20, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

They should give 200 skill points per player along with the sigil when you win HoH

Master Gunner · May 20, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

How I think PVE guys should get sigils is that when you ascend and beat the PVE part of the game you can get a sigil for around 30 000 gold.

thorizdin · May 20, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadye X

Were you mainly interrested in pvp, your goal in pve is to simply unlock skills / runes / item upgrades correct ? So say you get a drop for a major rune, but you don't manage to salvage it. No worries really, since you'll still have that rune unlocked for your pvp characters to use either way. On the other hand, a person interrested in pve, and completing the mission sequence gets the same rune drop, also fails to salvage it and guess what ? They get zero benefit from the same drop other than a small handful of common crafting materials. Balanced ?

I agree with this, runes are far too rare to have a large chance of not salvaging it. Again, it does hurt the PvP player, because we have to create PvE toons, but its a valid complaint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadye X

I don't disagree in the slightest that there should be a major pvp award, and never have. My point is, it takes as much skill as an individual and working with a team to complete the mission sequence as it does to land yourself a win in the HoH ... yet where's the reward to balance the two ? Right now I'm only one mission away from having finished them, and as I said in my other post I've yet to see a single major or superior rune drop, nor a single rare weapon for my primary ( necro ). So I've had to buy runes / items just the same as a pvp character as I can tell you from experience that drops by no means get better or more frequent the further you get. And in the meantime I"ve had to buy all my armor sets etc, which as mentioned previously a pvp character gets for free. Oh, and the pvp character doesn't have to worry either about failing to salvage their runes from one armor set to the next, costing even more for runes if you don't get the drop yourself, which again, once unlocked for pvp you never have to bother with that issue again. Again I ask, do you see balance there ?

IMHO, the same abilities that PvP characters have, ie unlock once and be able to use on all new PvE characters, makes perfect sense. However, PvE isn't my thing and I try not to push my preferences on others, I don't know how many PvE players this would make happy and how many would be outraged. The rune drop rate is ridiculous IMO, it introduces a huge amount of grind into the game. The only thing that I will add to this, is the fact that even people who only want to PvP have to put in a significant amount of time in PvE and are subject to the same problems you site here. Long term, the Rune and Skill situation is better for PvP players because we do have a "repository" thats safe and reproducable. My problem is how long getting to long term is taking.

Corwin_Andros · May 20, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Why should an entire guild have to wait for someone to ascend or finish the game AND pay 30k for a sigil?

Do PvP players have to pay for the sigil they win in the HoH? No they don't.. Just play and win and someone gets it for free.

If the sigil is meant as a reward, then fine. Allow anyone who ascends to get a sigil as a bonus. Maybe that damned mysterious bonus for beating your mirror in under 50 Secs. I beat mine in that time and all I got was a crappy bow that was like a plain 'ol 10-19 bow with a requirement of like 11.. Not much of a reward at all.

jmasters · May 20, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Wow, I feel like Jackell... so many new posts.

I'm glad this hasn't turned into too much of a PvP vs PvE thing. I have to say that one thing that I was certainly missing before this conversation was how many different ways they could let PvE people earn the sigil.
I can understand the PvP crowd's demands for PvE players to "earn" the sigil and frankly I think PvE players would be fine having to "earn" it in a way that didn't put involve other players (i.e. no PvP, no required buying from other players, no competing with other players for a limited supply). I think a tough mission would be good and maybe even a gold requirement to boot.
The only problem I see with having wait until beating the game (and I don’t think it's a terrible idea) is that I think it will still be disappointing because the game made it seem like the guild hall would be something you got during the game not after. I can say this with certainty, if I had known at the outset that a guildhall was something I would get by winning the game, then I wouldn't have even posted this suggestion... I'd be fine with waiting.

Thorizdin, I hear a lot of what you are saying. I think the game could be a lot more balanced and not reward PvE players so much more (in many ways) over PvP. Every instance where that happens is WRONG; it is a FLAW. The game was advertised as letting you get full enjoyment out of either option. I think the difference between you and me may be (I could be wrong) that I don't want any flaw supported even if it balances out another one. They should fix this Celestial Sigil flaw and let PvE players "earn" the sigil in a PvE way. Guild features should not have to be bought from other players.
If you post a suggestion thread with ways to give (in a purely PvP way) PvP players benefits that PvE players get, I'll whole heartedly support you. I just don't want to penalize PvE players in an effort to offset the penalties PvP players receive. Let me know what you think.

KrystenDeathknight · May 21, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

How I think PVE guys should get sigils is that when you ascend and beat the PVE part of the game you can get a sigil for around 30 000 gold.

Another great idea - like this a lot.

dansamy · May 21, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

AreanNet could solve the issue very easily. Like the belt pouches in Pre-Searing that you cannot trade to another player, make Sigils sellable only to the Sigil Trader. Have her purchase them for a price based on supply and demand the way it is now. She then sells them at a price based on the current supply and demand. The PvP gets a fair market value for their Sigil without price-gouging it or selling a digital item for real dollars on eBay. The PvE can actually buy a Sigil when they've made enough money to do so, without suffering the "now we've got 40k and the price just jumped to 50k".

jmasters · May 21, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Maybe ArenaNet will take note of this stuff now that Celestial Sigils are actually on Ebay?

Grimpaw · May 21, 2005, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Heh, sigils are the inverse of the (elite) skills issue.

Making it difficult to access the content of the game to create artificial rewards is silly. Rewards should be given for good play, but accessing required content (guildhalls and skills) should be easy. "Earning" your right to play the parts of the game you are interested in has always been terrible design.

jmasters · May 21, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Interesting Grimpaw. I had a discussion with someone yesterday and we kinda reached a similar conclusion. Basically, you should be really playing the game to get to the core stuff... and playing the PvE game doesn't mean sitting around trying to find other players to buy stuff from and then haggling over prices. Honestly if that was the game they intended... they suck at communicating.

Jackell · May 21, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Hmmm, yeah. Sigils on ebay is starting to change my opinion. I had hoped that a game where the items aren't all that great and money isn't too hard to come by would stop the ebaying. Oh well. I like the idea of locking sigils so they can't trade them, but only if the sigil buyer buys them for a price to make getting them worth it for the pvp crowd.

This is kind of off topic, but who else would like to see Guild Halls do more than just a place to set up a GvG. I dunno, maybe have some sort of effect for PvE or something along those lines. I dunno, I'm just rambling.

balmung · May 21, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

does anyone know what it cost from the sigil trader i they only had one in stock. god i hate campers. i hoped this game would be camper free like they advertised with the private worlds. i do believe they will evetually fix this. 20k or even 30k would not be to unreasonable as a set price if they atleast had it in stock.

dansamy · May 21, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Yeah, but camping is your only hope of getting it from the trader. Otherwise, you hafta buy it from the sharks who want at least 60k for it. I saw one sell for 120k. I'll buy one at 60, but I'm not paying 120k for it.

jmasters · May 22, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Out of curiosity, does nayone know someone who's actually bought a sigil off of ebay?